If chivalry is on life support, it's in the vegetative state and feminism is the brain cancer that put it there. Yeah I said it. I ain't scared of you LOL. But seriously, when I try to helpful with women, it's hit or miss. Sometimes I get into light arguments about it. For example, my homegirl was walkin in front of me (mainly because I don't trust no woman behind me LOL). But she gets to the door and holds it open for me. When I hold it, it was natural for me to see she goes in first so I held the door open, she sucked her teeth at me. HMPH. I have another friend who would say things like, "Gimme a break, just go through the door!" Some women are thankful as well. But, then those are the ones that expect you to wipe their asses when they take a shit too. No thanks lol
Gordon
· 9 months ago
I find it a little bit ironic that your response to "Did feminism kill chivalry?" was "you can’t have everything dude." Because in reality, it goes completely in the other direction. I would say "you can't have everything" to the feminists who expect to reap the benefits of chivalry while maintaining their independence and revised gender roles. There are a growing number of women who want to have a career, total control over their household, and a complete sense of freedom and independence, yet simultaneously expect that men will shower them with roses, pay for their meals, and generally pamper them. In other words, they wish to abandon any negative aspects of the traditional female role, but retain just the parts that are beneficial to them, and expect men to accommodate this (and then wonder why men feel emasculated, or wonder where all the nice guys went).
Basically, you are forgetting a big part of the equation. Chivalry is not just about opening doors and buying flowers. Chivalry was about maintaining gender roles and balance, in that women were seen as something delicate that should be protected and valued. They were expected to be housewives and mothers. They were expected to have dinner on the table at 6 every night for the man, cater to the man's needs/whims, be wholly responsible for the welfare of the children, so on and so forth. They were not expected to think, instead they were expected to just defer to the will of the husband. IN EXCHANGE, men were taught to do chivalrous actions like holding doors, walking on the outside of the sidewalk, and other sheltering and protective actions. But nowadays, some women expect that men should continue doing these nice things for them, but they refuse to maintain any aspects of the traditional feminine role. In fact, a number of women even get offended at the mere suggestion of it.
It's often said that the current generation (Generation Y) is far more narcissistic than previous generations, with a generally inflated sense of entitlement. So it should not be too surprising to think that many women expect to be pampered without doing anything for it in exchange. So my short answer to your question is yes, feminism did kill chivalry. It killed it dead. Chivalry only works when both sides keep up their ends of the bargain. It's about balance. You can't have everything, ladies.
CocoaDiva
· 9 months ago
Interesting response.
I agreee with you regarding the premise of chivalry and the basis for it. Yes, women were housewives and mothers and life has changed.
What amazes me is how roles have switched. It appears to me now that as men are more comforable with the independent woman they have started to slack on responsibilities or expect more from the woman while giving less in relationships than way back yon.
For instance, men want a woman who works and most don't want a housewife. So you want her to work, open her own doors, care for and educate your kids, cook, clean and etc. Meaning, men have given up their responsibility (working) and have picked up no other responsibilities. So, you work.....what else do you do. So, that being said, you could still pick up a tab, or open a door.
Women aren't the only ones with a heighened sense of entitlements. Men are expecting a lot without changing their game....Your roster is coming up short homey.
I write these things becasue I see the glaring inequalities in relationsihps. Instead of them being a balanced equation or folks adapting and changing. Gen Y does need a shock to the system and worry a lot less about self and more about the whole.
Modern Day Gentleman
· 9 months ago
Time for the "Modern Day Gentleman" to dip in the conversation...
I too begin this passage in response to and totally appalled by the comment, "this is a cop out men use to be lazy or pass the buck. You can’t have everything dude." For Real...Are You Serious!! You are absolutely right but women sure as hell CAN'T have everything too!
In my opinion, the modern day "gentle"man is strongly attracted to a strong, successful, confident, and secure sista who has it together...career, civic, social, etc. Conversely, a woman who is dependant, fragile, frail, and needy is a COMPLETE turnoff. You are not an infant! I am not Captain Save a …. I digress. So I do believe men’s expectations of women are changing. However, I believe chivalry can and should exist … just with a few modern twists.
1. Women, you can not sing the Beyonce songs “Can you pay my bills...” and “All the women who are independent…” in the same day. You are going to confuse yourself. Pick one…hopefully Independent Women. We “Moden Day Gentleman” like strong sistas.
2. Learn all of the lyrics to the Beyonce song “Cater to You” and make that your mantra. In order to get a good man you are going to have to be a good woman … and that includes catering to your man or prospective man. This includes picking up the tab every now and again. (I’m not saying you’re a gold digger and you damn sure ain’t messing with a broke … but as stated previously, I ain’t trying to pay all of your bills.)
Now do I personally display chivalry in this day and age? Yes. Should I always display chilvary regardless of whether women subscribe to the above stated tenants? Yes. But if all I ever hear about is what I’m not doing and what more I could be doing and how I can up my game and how much better you think I could do … then don’t expect chivalry from me. Rather think about what you can do to up your game before it’s GAME OVER.
cjm
· 9 months ago
I once dated a fella who was on a mission to debunk all illusions I had about gender roles. He walked through doors before me, ordered before me in restaurants, sat with his back to the door, walked with me closest to the street never grabbed a piece of my luggage or a grocery bag even if he was empty handed, and so on and so forth. Then towards the ends of our dealings with each other he told me that I have a problem letting a man be a man because I never let him drive my vehicle (which is currently a pickup) around the streets of my town, which he is unfamiliar with. He looked at me like I was loony when I started laughing. The situation was funny because he was unlike any man I'd ever dated or been friends with. Even my coworkers hold doors and wait for the women to exit the elavator first. To me, paying for stuff is not an indication of whether or not a man has a chivalrous heart. We all have different financial situations. However, if he has two working arms, opening a door is easy.
Gordon
· 9 months ago
"Men want a woman who works and most don't want a housewife."
[citation needed]
No doubt this is true for some men, maybe even a decent-sized population of them, but I can tell you that, as a man, this isn't a requirement for me. And I'd bet you $20 I could find a bunch of other guys who feel the same way as I do. I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of someday marrying a woman who wants to be a housewife. And I'm likewise comfortable with the idea of someday marrying a woman who wants to work. Although I do confess that I think about the two possibilities in very different lights, in terms of what I would expect out of the relationship. I think I would expect a housewife to do more of the traditional things, like cooking and cleaning and all that, since she wouldn't be contributing anything financially to the family.
But as it happens, I do kind of like the chivalry stuff anyway. Maybe it's just how I was raised. The last few times I've taken a woman out to dinner or on other dates I've paid every time. I try to get the door as often as I can remember to, as well. But many times these sort of actions go unrewarded, or even scorned in a few rare cases. And speaking more generally, if one person goes out of the way to do something for another, but is never rewarded or positively reinforced for doing it, chances are that they'll eventually stop doing it. I have a feeling that men do these things more often than you might guess, but it often goes unnoticed/unappreciated.
RichBrand
· 9 months ago
I think there's a dynamic that missing from this equation, and it's the absence of a good example in the home. If you're a man or woman who grew up in a single home or in a home that had an abusive, nigga-ish father figure in the home, that's gonna have an impact on how you approach and how you are approached. Just like education, work ethic, how to tie your shoes, it all starts in the home. If you're a young child in a single mom home, and your mom keeps dating men who dog her out, and none of them show any act right, then that's gonna dictate, as a man, how you approach women and, as a woman, how you let men treat you because of what you see. As part of Project ALPHA in Philly, my home chapter always conducts a workshop on the rules of dating/courtship, where we invite AKA's in to give a woman's point of view of supplement. A couple of years back, one of the ladies of AKA made a comment about what to do on a first date when a man goes to pick up a young lady on a first date, how you're supposed to get out of the car, walk up and knock on the door, ask if the lady's home, meet her parent(s), then take her out. One of the young boys in the classroom started laughing at the thought of that. The lady asked the young man why he laughed, and he said "Please, nobody does that. No REAL dude does that.........unless you want the girl to think you soft." After which another young man confirmed "Yeah man, only punks do that." When you see that, the first thing that goes through your head is "who's the dumbass who taught them that?" Was it the wack father figure in his home? Was it the streets? Was it the example that momma provided? To my point, all of this has an impact on a young child as to how to conduct themselves in the game of dating/courtship.
lynnette
· 9 months ago
WOW!! I'm really shocked at some of the responses here! As a feminist, I must say a lot of you are really confused about what feminism is. Feminism is about equality for men and women. Therefore, equally treat a woman the way you would want to be treated. A true feminist can care less what side of the street you walked on, or if you paid the bill. The bottom line is some of these things really just show what kind of manners you have! Don't open a door for me because I'm a woman; open it because it's polite. I mean seriously, if a man was walking in behind you would you just let the door slam in his face! Don't help me out with the bags because I'm a woman, help me because I am physically weaker than you and could use an extra hand. You wouldn't leave an elderly man to move furniture. Even though he's a man, he's physically weaker and so you help him because it's polite. Don't pamper me because I am simply a woman, do it to show how much you care and the favor will be reciprocated. I will pamper you. And those guys who need a thank you and a pat on the back for every little thing you do, go buy some self worth and self respect. Women who are polite with manners will say thank you for opening doors and helping with bags; and if she doesn't, take it as something you learned about her and move on. My boyfriend and I don’t play into the gender roles crap. We treat each other with the desired respect we would want and that’s what works for us. Yes, some women cry feminist and then fall into gender roles, thus making them look selfish. But men have to be sensitive to the idea that while we may want to truly be treated equally, we have grown up in a society that heavily impacts our behavior and what is expected of men and women. It will take time for people to really grasp the concept of equality in ALL aspects of life, not just feminism. Nonetheless, to answer the question, No, feminism has not killed chivalry, self centered and ill-mannered people killed chivalry. Feminism does not equal rudeness.
A Diva
· 9 months ago
Wow a few things have have made me laugh and others had me sucking my teeth in disgust! I consider myself a feminist AND I require a man be "chivalrous." As Lynette said, polite is polite and I see a lot of my menfolk confusing our independence with an excuse to be an ass. I love Beyonce's song cater to you, but what's missing is that to have a woman who treats you like that, you have got do the same to her!
I meet so many men who want us to "keep it tight," have food on the table, be ready for sex at any time, keep the house, raise the kids, and go out and work a job. I have one question, what do you do exactly? What do you think makes a good man?
FYI back in the day (during the days of true chilvary), women had assistance to help run the household! Yes imagine that, women weren't expected to work 24/7 to keep the house AND keep her man happy. She MANAGED the household staff (cleaning, cooking, grounds, childcare providers, etc... ) and focused in keeping herself up and tending to her honey directly. Who's willing to set a woman up like that? I was raised to be polite (I always say please and thank you) and to expect a man to cater to me. At the same time I was raised to cater to my man. I have found that while many men enjoy the cooking and the way I love to take care of my honey, VERY FEW understand the concept that in order to receive you have to give as well. The independent woman doesn't necessarily want or need you to give your money because she has her own, so here is where chivalry really comes into play, cause if its not about the wallet or the penis, what else is there other than your actions and the way you treat her?
Get it together brothas and ladies learn how to appreciate the good ones!
swiv
· 9 months ago
i dont' want a woman whose goal is to be a housewife. women need to start picking up the tab after a few days, though. we in a recession. LOL. i do all if not most of the above. but i was taught that. i might slip on the side walk thing, but no woman ever carries bags (unless it's her purse, and i'll never carry that) around me. and if a man's dealbreaker is whether or not he sits face front to the door, he didn't want you anyway. that's pretty petty and small minded.
Anita
· 9 months ago
I don't mind chivalry being dead as much as I mind common human courtesy being dead. For instance, opening or holding a door for someone is just polite. If I get there first, I'll do it, but I won't get mad at a dude for opening it for me (WTF is that about anyway? If letting a door just slam in someone's face is rude, acting like someone is a jerk for *not* letting a door slam in your face has to also be rude) Also, if I see a pregnant woman standing on a bus and no able-bodied young man is offering her a seat, I'm certainly not above giving her mine. If a dude does stuff like that it's called 'chivalrous', but if I do that it's just... nice? Why can't people just be nice to other people?
Back when I was in college I took a chemistry lab, during the course of which I broke a lot of (expensive) laboratory glassware. Everytime I'd smash a beaker, or let a test tube roll onto the floor and shatter, or accidently explode a flask full of boiling acid, this guy who had the bench space next to mine would ask me if I was ok and offer to help me clean it up. I couldn't figure out why he'd do that; he was clearly not hitting on me and since I was the one breaking the stuff, why shouldn't I clean it up myself? It took me a long time to get a clue and just say thank you
CocoaDiva
· 9 months ago
Here is a comment from Ms. Manners about door opening. I felt it was appropriate for the discusion
Gentle Reader, Keep holding doors, please. You really do not want to learn manners from people who curse you out when you are trying to be courteous. Besides, that was a long time ago, and many such people have since learned that it was not a good idea to stomp out consideration of others.
However, Miss Manners suggests that you drop the bit about its being done to honor ladies. It should be done for anyone who needs it, male or female, simply because we all want to live in a world where not everyone is pushing everyone else out of the way to get in first.
All Comments
Basically, you are forgetting a big part of the equation. Chivalry is not just about opening doors and buying flowers. Chivalry was about maintaining gender roles and balance, in that women were seen as something delicate that should be protected and valued. They were expected to be housewives and mothers. They were expected to have dinner on the table at 6 every night for the man, cater to the man's needs/whims, be wholly responsible for the welfare of the children, so on and so forth. They were not expected to think, instead they were expected to just defer to the will of the husband. IN EXCHANGE, men were taught to do chivalrous actions like holding doors, walking on the outside of the sidewalk, and other sheltering and protective actions. But nowadays, some women expect that men should continue doing these nice things for them, but they refuse to maintain any aspects of the traditional feminine role. In fact, a number of women even get offended at the mere suggestion of it.
It's often said that the current generation (Generation Y) is far more narcissistic than previous generations, with a generally inflated sense of entitlement. So it should not be too surprising to think that many women expect to be pampered without doing anything for it in exchange. So my short answer to your question is yes, feminism did kill chivalry. It killed it dead. Chivalry only works when both sides keep up their ends of the bargain. It's about balance. You can't have everything, ladies.
I agreee with you regarding the premise of chivalry and the basis for it. Yes, women were housewives and mothers and life has changed.
What amazes me is how roles have switched. It appears to me now that as men are more comforable with the independent woman they have started to slack on responsibilities or expect more from the woman while giving less in relationships than way back yon.
For instance, men want a woman who works and most don't want a housewife. So you want her to work, open her own doors, care for and educate your kids, cook, clean and etc. Meaning, men have given up their responsibility (working) and have picked up no other responsibilities. So, you work.....what else do you do. So, that being said, you could still pick up a tab, or open a door.
Women aren't the only ones with a heighened sense of entitlements. Men are expecting a lot without changing their game....Your roster is coming up short homey.
I write these things becasue I see the glaring inequalities in relationsihps. Instead of them being a balanced equation or folks adapting and changing. Gen Y does need a shock to the system and worry a lot less about self and more about the whole.
I too begin this passage in response to and totally appalled by the comment, "this is a cop out men use to be lazy or pass the buck. You can’t have everything dude." For Real...Are You Serious!! You are absolutely right but women sure as hell CAN'T have everything too!
In my opinion, the modern day "gentle"man is strongly attracted to a strong, successful, confident, and secure sista who has it together...career, civic, social, etc. Conversely, a woman who is dependant, fragile, frail, and needy is a COMPLETE turnoff. You are not an infant! I am not Captain Save a …. I digress. So I do believe men’s expectations of women are changing. However, I believe chivalry can and should exist … just with a few modern twists.
1. Women, you can not sing the Beyonce songs “Can you pay my bills...” and “All the women who are independent…” in the same day. You are going to confuse yourself. Pick one…hopefully Independent Women. We “Moden Day Gentleman” like strong sistas.
2. Learn all of the lyrics to the Beyonce song “Cater to You” and make that your mantra. In order to get a good man you are going to have to be a good woman … and that includes catering to your man or prospective man. This includes picking up the tab every now and again. (I’m not saying you’re a gold digger and you damn sure ain’t messing with a broke … but as stated previously, I ain’t trying to pay all of your bills.)
Now do I personally display chivalry in this day and age? Yes. Should I always display chilvary regardless of whether women subscribe to the above stated tenants? Yes. But if all I ever hear about is what I’m not doing and what more I could be doing and how I can up my game and how much better you think I could do … then don’t expect chivalry from me. Rather think about what you can do to up your game before it’s GAME OVER.
[citation needed]
No doubt this is true for some men, maybe even a decent-sized population of them, but I can tell you that, as a man, this isn't a requirement for me. And I'd bet you $20 I could find a bunch of other guys who feel the same way as I do. I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of someday marrying a woman who wants to be a housewife. And I'm likewise comfortable with the idea of someday marrying a woman who wants to work. Although I do confess that I think about the two possibilities in very different lights, in terms of what I would expect out of the relationship. I think I would expect a housewife to do more of the traditional things, like cooking and cleaning and all that, since she wouldn't be contributing anything financially to the family.
But as it happens, I do kind of like the chivalry stuff anyway. Maybe it's just how I was raised. The last few times I've taken a woman out to dinner or on other dates I've paid every time. I try to get the door as often as I can remember to, as well. But many times these sort of actions go unrewarded, or even scorned in a few rare cases. And speaking more generally, if one person goes out of the way to do something for another, but is never rewarded or positively reinforced for doing it, chances are that they'll eventually stop doing it. I have a feeling that men do these things more often than you might guess, but it often goes unnoticed/unappreciated.
Just like education, work ethic, how to tie your shoes, it all starts in the home. If you're a young child in a single mom home, and your mom keeps dating men who dog her out, and none of them show any act right, then that's gonna dictate, as a man, how you approach women and, as a woman, how you let men treat you because of what you see.
As part of Project ALPHA in Philly, my home chapter always conducts a workshop on the rules of dating/courtship, where we invite AKA's in to give a woman's point of view of supplement. A couple of years back, one of the ladies of AKA made a comment about what to do on a first date when a man goes to pick up a young lady on a first date, how you're supposed to get out of the car, walk up and knock on the door, ask if the lady's home, meet her parent(s), then take her out. One of the young boys in the classroom started laughing at the thought of that. The lady asked the young man why he laughed, and he said "Please, nobody does that. No REAL dude does that.........unless you want the girl to think you soft." After which another young man confirmed "Yeah man, only punks do that."
When you see that, the first thing that goes through your head is "who's the dumbass who taught them that?" Was it the wack father figure in his home? Was it the streets? Was it the example that momma provided?
To my point, all of this has an impact on a young child as to how to conduct themselves in the game of dating/courtship.
I meet so many men who want us to "keep it tight," have food on the table, be ready for sex at any time, keep the house, raise the kids, and go out and work a job. I have one question, what do you do exactly? What do you think makes a good man?
FYI back in the day (during the days of true chilvary), women had assistance to help run the household! Yes imagine that, women weren't expected to work 24/7 to keep the house AND keep her man happy. She MANAGED the household staff (cleaning, cooking, grounds, childcare providers, etc... ) and focused in keeping herself up and tending to her honey directly. Who's willing to set a woman up like that? I was raised to be polite (I always say please and thank you) and to expect a man to cater to me. At the same time I was raised to cater to my man. I have found that while many men enjoy the cooking and the way I love to take care of my honey, VERY FEW understand the concept that in order to receive you have to give as well. The independent woman doesn't necessarily want or need you to give your money because she has her own, so here is where chivalry really comes into play, cause if its not about the wallet or the penis, what else is there other than your actions and the way you treat her?
Get it together brothas and ladies learn how to appreciate the good ones!
Back when I was in college I took a chemistry lab, during the course of which I broke a lot of (expensive) laboratory glassware. Everytime I'd smash a beaker, or let a test tube roll onto the floor and shatter, or accidently explode a flask full of boiling acid, this guy who had the bench space next to mine would ask me if I was ok and offer to help me clean it up. I couldn't figure out why he'd do that; he was clearly not hitting on me and since I was the one breaking the stuff, why shouldn't I clean it up myself? It took me a long time to get a clue and just say thank you
http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/articlep...
Gentle Reader,
Keep holding doors, please. You really do not want to learn manners from people who curse you out when you are trying to be courteous. Besides, that was a long time ago, and many such people have since learned that it was not a good idea to stomp out consideration of others.
However, Miss Manners suggests that you drop the bit about its being done to honor ladies. It should be done for anyone who needs it, male or female, simply because we all want to live in a world where not everyone is pushing everyone else out of the way to get in first.